Cooking Up Innovation: Turning Outdoor Passions into Sustainable Culinary Creations

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Oh, it's my pleasure. It was great to get to know you a little bit, now have this more in depth conversation. So for those not familiar with you and what you do, would you just introduce yourself, your title, and the name of your company?

So my name is Jamie Poe. I am the Co-Owner of Poe & Co., and Poe & Co. Folk Foods. And we are Santa Barbara based. Family owned, chef owned catering company out of Santa Barbara. And we also have a small line of vegan camping meals.

So much to talk about. So you are your co-owner, so that means that you have a partner. Tell me about your partner.

That is my husband, and his name is Jason. And he also, like me, has a cooking background. We're both longtime chefs. Both of us did stints in different restaurants, hotels, a lot of places that people don't know if you're into food. And we started the catering company five and a half years ago when we wanted to have kids and we needed to figure out how two chefs can have kids and make it work. So we decided that going into business was the only way we could make it happen. And it's been a good ride.

Awesome. So now you guys run your own business, and you've got kids?

Yes, we do. We've got two little kids, a three year old and a five year old.

That does sound as you so tell me a little bit about your background and your speciality as a chef.

In terms of the catering company, we kind of like to just say we do seasonal California Food however that means to people. So think colorful things seasonally driven a lot of produce on a flick Farmers Market ingredients, what you see there. And our style is just very approachable, but elevated. We don't like perfection at all. So things look a little purposely messy, and we try to have that wabi sabi style when it comes to our food. And we actually have a meal delivery element as well. So we try to translate that type of food into the different legs of the business. So it all is a cohesive style, but in different formats. So the meal delivery, a lot of to go catering events. And now our vegan camping meals are a little bit of a, I wouldn't say quite a left turn, but definitely a product that some either depending on how well you know us, either you do or don't expect.

What inspired that? Because it does seem a bit of a detour from what you're doing. So what was the inspiration behind that?

So inspiration was the fact that my husband and I are longtime chefs, and are obviously huge foodies, love eating, love cooking. Love eating, probably more, and big outdoorsy people. Especially prior to kids, we used to spend a lot of time hiking, a lot of time at the beach, a lot of time camping, and it sort of was always this. I don't know if you want to call it like a void or like this blank question mark. When we camped, it was like, what do we eat that has accents and it's good tasting, and also with the limitations that camping brings? And going back to the bigger like, why did we do this? We've worked in the service industry for a really long time, and the catering business is very much a service based business. And I think both professionally and personally, we wanted the challenge of doing a product based business. There's enough jams in the world. There's enough nut butters in the world. And this was something that we felt like was a category that was just really, I guess, staying. Definitely untapped, but also something that we felt like we could add value to, and bring with the unique experience that we have, and our passion. Something that we are uniquely positioned to fulfill.

So how long has this product out now?

So products have been out for a little over a year.

That's a big deal from branding, to the recipes, to the supply chain, to co packing. There's a lot that goes into that. And first kicked off this conversation, correct me if I'm wrong, we talked about you kicking off your catering company because you were having two kids. So naturally, thanks for the question. How do you match the children, a catering company, and now a product launch? I mean, that's a lot.

Yeah. I think we're gluttons for punishment. And we like to stay busy. I, Jason, who's my partner.

I can't see your face, but I see the side of you like a sleeve.

Just sneaking in here. I don't want to disrupt the podcast.

Well, at least say hi to everybody.

Hi, everybody.

Tell them who you are. We can't see your face. There you go. That's much better. Hi, Jason. Nice to meet you. I'm Justine.

Hi, Justine. I'm Jason, Jamie's partner.

Jason of Poe & Co., nice to meet you.

He's the CO, and I'm the POE.

Alrighty, so let's circle back there. We were talking about managing and juggling. If the carrying company wasn't what you imagined in your head when you're like, oh, how are we going to manage this? A chef that has children?

I guess the thing is you don't really think that far ahead. Quite honestly, a daily struggle to try to figure it all out and get your To Do Lists even half done. And on taboo. We're also a bootstrap company, which I feel like people don't amplify enough when it comes to what you see out there and what that means. Whether you have investment or whether you're bootstrapped, they have their pros and cons. But I definitely think that when you're a bootstrap company, every minute, every dollar, you really have to account for. And that's something that I think about a lot, too.

So why did you guys decide to bootstrap versus go for funding or investment?

It's a little bit more authentic to who we are. We're a little more, I would say tortoise than hare with our approach in business. And we hope to be here for a long time. I think it's the control aspect of it. We just really take a lot of pride in making those decisions that need to be made for our business. And yeah, and I think that that's just how we've always felt, and it wasn't really a consideration. It's a Never Say Never situation. It's certainly something that. If it's great for you, great. But for us, it was just the control aspect, the being authentic to ourselves growing in a way that makes sense for us. We were keeping our day jobs for the time being.

Sometimes, it's the hustle. It's about making it all happen together. And finding that moment when it's right for you to give up that day job to really go all in because it is self-sustaining, and can bring in the revenue you need to support the business and your family. So now, since you and Jason are partners, you guys both have some similar skill sets, because you're both chefs. But I would imagine you both have different skill sets. How do you guys marry that together? So what is it that you guys focus on? And what would you say that he is the guy I go to for this, and he's the one that manages this?

Luckily for us, I mean, we had this really natural division. I don't know if we would have been able to make it work otherwise. But there's a lot more that goes into running a business, a food business and the actual food itself. So Jason is more of the operations guy. He's more of the keys, the financial guy. Whereas I'm more outreach marketing, run these social media pages, I do all the websites. So all the websites, anything has to do with the websites, I do basically. We both cook. He actually carries more of that way, for sure. He deserves a lot of that credit. And at first when we first started, we would definitely step on each other's toes with vision for how a dish should be. And over time, we've been able to separate that a lot. For example, I do pretty much all the baking. So anything pastry wise, I do. I do other mixers like drinks, things like that. I do anything visual aesthetic I have the last day. And then he does basically all the savory. And then sometimes, we have weird divisions. I'll do this salad dressings or something like that, you what I mean?

What would he say about you in terms of like, Jamie is amazing to work with? Or Jamie is difficult to work with? How would he describe you? Or she's a fixer, she gets everything fixed? I don't know.

I don't know. I think I'm probably a bit more of a visionary. So I'm a bit more like, let's go in this direction. And then he really helps to get us there. It's really complimentary with the way that we were, like I said, it wasn't just natural off the bat in many very creative aspects of it. But over time, we synched up really well. We still have our disagreements, and we had a disagreement over handling something this morning. But I think for the most part, we get it done together. Yeah, I don't know. I am sure he'll say that I'm difficult sometimes.

So what do you think about him? Is he difficult? Is he easy? I think you put everything together. We all have baggage, and we all have our own little idiosyncrasies. It's annoying sometimes.

Totally. We have always talked about how, there are two types of people when you pull back and when you push forward. And I'm probably more like, you got to pull it back a little. He's probably a little more like, you got to push them forward a little, which can work really well sometimes. It is not the easiest I would imagine.

There's always somebody that's a visionary. You have chiefs and Indians. In many cases here, you have two chiefs, so to speak. And then maybe, you're the Indian to the other depending on what the role is.

I would say that's probably a good way.

So now when you started this, what was your hope for it? What was your big vision?

With the camping meals?

With all of it.

It's hard with catering because I think that we just kind of started it. It was like literally an overnight decision. And it was like, okay, we got to do something now, and there we were. I don't know. What I do know is we don't want the catering company to grow in the ways that some of these really big catering companies have grown. So it's like, we're not trying to, like some people buy their own equipment and rent it out for events. We're not trying to rent out giant ovens for events, and we won't. So I think that that's something that we're very comfortable with the amount of work that we already have. And I think that the focus with growth would be with the product. So the camping meals, which is something that you can scale, we can't really scale ourselves when it comes to--

There's only a finite amount of time.

Yeah. No, totally. A lot of the impetus for the product line is the fact that if we can make it work, we don't have to work on weekends. Saturdays are really big, and we'd like to spend that time with our kids.

So if we go back to the camping meals, what do they look like? Can you show me a pack?

It's funny, we actually just sold out. So I have a bunch getting ready. We made some small batches, but we try to, here's like our ramen bowl.

Yes. That's familiar to me.

This is our best seller, actually. Which is pretty funny. We're just talking about how, I don't know, I kind of thought when we were going to put a ramen on that. It wouldn't be a best seller only because there's a lot of ramen out there already. It's our best seller, which is hilarious. And then I have a couple of extra ones like, here's coconut shake. chickpea stew. This was the archetype for all of them. And I would say my personal favorite is a quinoa sweet potato skillet. So things like breakfast burritos, that's like an amazing flavor profile for that.

Where are these available to purchase?

So obviously, direct to consumers through our website, and then we have a bunch of wholesalers. I have not done a count as of late, but I want to say that it's probably around 15 to 20 at this point.

I was thinking (inaudible) just seems like a good fit. Would that be a good fit?

Everyone tells us it'll be a good fit. That's what I think when most people think of this.

That's why I gave you another one, Paragon.

I remember Paragon.

As a kid. I got everything there.

A great place. It's still there, right?

At Least the last time I was in town, it was there. Every time I go back, something changes.

I know. I haven't been to the city since before we had kids, so it's been a while. I'm itching to go back. It's probably the same, but different.

It's different post COVID. I mean, I haven't been there in about a year now. But the last time I was there, it felt very much like it was, there were parts of the cities still building back up. There were still empty windows, there were still closed restaurants. There were still shops that had been taken off Madison Avenue. However, I stayed down in Soho one time, and I stayed in Tribeca. It was like a completely different city than the Upper East Side, where every other store had been empty.

Definitely did not admire the COVID years over there. But as I mentioned, I think this is the year I'm itching. I really want to try to get back at some point in the next couple years.

Especially with the kids too. There's so much fun stuff to do in New York. Let's talk about the food in New York. There is so much great food. And if there's accessible food here, while here I feel everything is inaccessible for so many people because it's so expensive. But yeah, you have access to all the different fruits and vegetables because we grow so much here. But I feel like in New York, you have everything from something that's a bit more accessible to very expensive, all different kinds of experiences in between, and healthy options and better for you options, and people using good things. Obviously, it's a bigger city than Marin. In LA and Santa Barbara, you guys probably have many more options, probably.

I don't know. But New York is the mecca in the US for sure.

Yeah. So the fact that it is good that you have like, to me, it sounds like you're hoping to get that, have that far surpass any imagination that you have so that you could maybe then not do the catering. And that would be the full time kind of gig, so to speak.

I think we'd be very open to that. I think that we have some ideas for new flavors. For us, I hope that we can keep building up a really healthy direct to consumer business. I just think 2024 like that is still what people do. And one ton, it's great for us with margins and all that. But then I hope that at some point we can scale enough where we have a really strong wholesale presence. And there's a lot of amazing indie outdoor shops just all throughout the country that I can see us in. And then funnily enough, we've had a lot of interest from Canada. I would say that like Vancouver and Montreal. I could totally see that.

I could see Switzerland liking this.

I don't know, maybe. Who knows? But yeah, I think we're gonna definitely focus on the US for now.

I know that you have a strong culinary background, and that starting this company was a new venture for you. And maybe you had to tap into skills you didn't know that you had, or just we're not there naturally. What was that like for you guys?

It was very difficult, actually. So we thought that with our backgrounds, with the cooking backgrounds, that developing dehydrated, freeze dried meals would not be a hard thing to do. But we were proven really wrong. It was really, really challenging. And there's not a lot of information on the internet about exactly what to do or how to do it. And then the whole shelf stable aspect of it was very foreign to us. So it was a really big learning curve. And we're still learning things. But it was definitely not simple. And we did a lot of iterations. And then we actually, when we first launched, probably made our biggest mistake. We kind of just assumed that the supply chain that we had would essentially taste the same as our prototypes. And we learned the hard way that samples don't necessarily taste like what you then get. So it was a challenge. I'm sure that some of our very first customers think we are rows, but some big improvements since then.

Well, I guess it's lessons learned when you're going into something new. And how did you deal with the effects, you were new to this, you're a little bit green, and get the resources you need to be able to go out there and make that happen.

We're definitely still very green. And we're still learning every day. I don't know, I think it's just like anything you do. You just put one foot in front of the other, and it's like that you're building the plane as you're flying it. So I think that's just what we're doing daily with this.

Did you tap into other experts that you knew?

We booked it, we spoke with either two or three different consultants, which you gotta kind of sometimes take that with a grain of salt as well. I think sometimes, you go into things and you don't know what you don't know. So you expect to get this whole picture of information, and then maybe only get a little bit of that picture. So different consultants, and then we work with labs. So like for shelf stability, testing for accelerated shelf testing, a big thing is like water, you have to make sure that there's no water moisture. It's below a certain thing, whatever they call it, bracket or whatever. So it was definitely a lot, and then things become very expensive when you have to keep retrying. And so it's definitely a lot to swallow when you don't know what it is that you're swallowing.

You look back and you're like, okay, there's all this stuff that I was learning on the go. What takeaways do you have from that that you might institute now doing it so that you might not have the same experiences?

Hmm, I don't know. Unfortunately, there's only so much preparation you can do. And it's almost like, you just have to go through it to go through it. As much as you can be organized and you can do due diligence, and you can do the research and all that, you just can't shield yourself from any hiccups essentially.

Is there one question that you might share with somebody else building a business like that that they need to ask to make sure that they understand as they're building theirs, or some sort of tip you might be able to recommend?

I think that I just don't feel like there's any stupid questions. Just ask questions even if they seem dumb. Just ask them anyway. Like, who cares if people think that it's a bad question?

There's no bad question. Isn't that what they say? So is there anything you wish you knew going into this?

I think I wish we were so busy when we were putting this all together. And I wish I would have given myself maybe a little more space and grace with reiterating, getting it to a point where I felt like, okay, I feel like we're really ready for the next step. And I don't know, maybe that's not the best piece of advice because it's like having kids. Are you ever really ready right now? But I think maybe I wish I would have given myself a little more space with it all instead of, like for example, we launched in the middle of our busy catering like holiday season, it's until the beginning of the year so things like that. I think that I wish that instead of having a good house or just needing to get it done, it is better than perfect sort of a thing. Because I'm used to being on the perfect side of things. I was very much that perfectionist and you didn't want to put something out there if it wasn't perfect. And then we almost switched not hardcore, switched it to the other side of that spectrum. But it was definitely like, okay, let's get out there. But why didn't we wait until after the holidays? We could have just done that immediate gratification.

I think we all want that. We have a great idea. We're like, we got to do this now. Yeah,

And for us, it was maybe a little more of something off our to do list. But joke's on us. I think that that's maybe something that I would have allowed for us, and then the whole packaging thing is gnarly dealing with like these Packaging Companies. What I didn't want to do is I didn't want to buy stand up pouches. This is our pouch, but I don't want to buy a stand up pouch. That was just a generic one that we slapped a sticker on. Don't get me wrong, that is through and through our mentality. We're very brick building types where it's one piece at a time, and then let's see if it works and go up to the next thing. But with this, I felt like it was really important that the packaging represented the quality of product that we were trying to put out in Southern California, Central Coast California where we are. It doesn't have as big of a camp culture as other places. I knew we were going to try to sell in our own backyard or that we needed to have this pretty package ready to go for people because I don't think we have enough of that hardcore. I want to eat dried food that you just said boiling water to because I'm familiar with what this is. I don't think we had enough of that audience here to support a white bag with a sticker on it. And so it was important to me that we had something that really looked like. It had care and finesse, and here was our beautiful package out to you. And it looks great.

Now it looks great. Are you happy with how it came out?

Yeah. But dealing with those companies is pretty gnarly, and you have to buy minimums. So we bought more than we really wanted to. We're still living with that decision, but it is what it is. So if we want to make any small changes to the next run, then either we have to wait until the next run, or we have to put some patch sticker over it. So those are the choices that you don't realize at the time that you're gonna need to maybe think about.

Your customers are not necessarily going to know. They're gonna think it was intentional, whatever you do.

I know. We have an amazing graphic designer so I'm like, she could probably make a really cool camp patch or something if we really wanted to do that.

So I just want to dig in a little bit more to the packaging. So talk to you about your packaging. Is it sustainable? Is it compostable? Given it's for a camping trip, I'm wondering if that was any consideration for you?

It's a great question. And it was something that when we looked into all the packaging, and in speaking with different consultants and lab workers, and just doing a lot of research in general, there are compostable pouches on the market. There's a company called Elevate Packaging. I think their Midwestern base, I'm not sure. But we actually talked to them at Expo West. And not this year, but the year before. And we talked to them about this product, because it was before we pulled the final trigger. I think that it lines up with timing, I don't know. We talked to them, though, about what it is that we're doing. And they said it won't work essentially. So both in terms of pouring boiling water into them, and then the permeability of the packaging itself. So essentially, I know of one company that does food like this that uses those bags. And actually, I think they might use them. There's another company that does it. I believe it's up in Canada, but I am doing my research to have a shelf stable product where we have a two year shelf life. Some of them have like 5, 20 years on them, we didn't want that. So we have a two year shelf life. And so ours are not compostable. They're not recyclable, which pains me to say. And I think it pains everyone who does something like this, because we're all huge lovers of the earth. But the technology isn't there.

There's a company called Wild Kind that makes packaging. You can Google it, I can introduce you to them. I don't know how it works with boiling water, though. That wasn't part of our conversation. But I think if you look that up, you see that it could be a potentially good resource.

I'll revisit that every year if I need to, to see if the technology is there. But from our pretty deep research, it wasn't.

So I want to just go back to the foods that you make for catering because we have two components here. We have the catering company, and then we have the product company. And I just wanted to go back to the ethos that you were talking about, very local and sustainable, why is that important to you?

First of all, it's really important to support local economies. This is the maker of things. I think that that's just an important thing that we all can do for where we live sustainability. We've been in this industry a really long time, and it's just that food systems are broken. There's no way around it like it just is. For us, we're such pragmatic people that we're not so black and white with everything. But what's the best choice you can make with what's in front of you? We try to support where we can. It's not practical for us to spend every waking moment in a Farmers Market trying to gather things for a 300 person event where the menu was presented six months ago. So sometimes, there are just those choices that we have to make as well. So we try where we can make good decisions.

So when you look forward, and we look at the next three to five years, how do you first see, or would you like to see your catering company and your package grow? Do you see expertise with packaged goods?

I think that with the camping food, I definitely see more skews. We're working on breakfast right now. So savory breakfast, and then hopefully sweet breakfast, and then pasta. So all three of those are very much in the pipeline. I don't want to make any formal announcements, but we definitely have ideas for some add ons to that line as well, which I think could be really fun. I think that in terms of the catering business, probably try to taper that back as we grow this. And then just being a little more selective than we are right now about what cater that makes sense for us. But both of them are really fun to do. So one or the other is necessarily--

So for those folks that are tuning in and have an idea and for something that they want to start, what's your advice to them?

Just do it. What can we make money on that we'd be really interested in doing and passionate about. I don't know if that's necessarily always the thing that you need to follow or lead with is the passion, but it certainly helps. And then I think that look for something that you think could add value to someone. So when you need a caterer, or you really need to cater, and then our hope is with camping food is that it's such a convenient food. And I haven't even touched on that aspect of the fact that it's all vegan. Only all vegan line of camping meals.

Why was that important for you to include?

I think that we all know that a plant base is better for the planet, it's better for your bodies. And like us personally, as chefs, the idea of rehydrating, like freeze dried cubes of meat is just not our thing at all. That's not something that I have ever considered. So I think that there has always been a real lack of meals in this category that just are better for you, delicious flavor forward, but also archetypes for the type of dish like cooking that you just had boiling water. I felt like that was something that we could really put our heads together and do.

So if people want to now either find you to be a caterer or buy your product, what's the best way to connect?

So our website so that's poe-and-co.com. I always tell people like Edgar Allen if you can't remember, and that will link you to everything we do. And then Instagram, you can find us at Poe & Co., Poe & Co. Folk Foods.

Awesome. Jamie, thank you so much for joining us today. It was great to chat with you and learn about what you're doing.

Thank you for having me.