EIS9 53: Making Business Personal: Lessons from 30 Years of Conscious Entrepreneurship with Susan and Brad Black
“In the old days, families worked together, like on a farm, and that's the model we wanted to create for ourselves at EO Products.” —Brad Black
Most businesses die because they chase profits instead of purpose—a raw, honest truth that cuts to the core of entrepreneurial burnout and lost passion. A lot of entrepreneurs pour their hearts and soul into a business, only to become a slave to spreadsheets and profit margins. But what if there was another way?
Brad and Susan Black, co-founders of EO Products, are pioneering entrepreneurs who transformed a passionate curiosity about essential oils into a 30-year sustainable business empire. With backgrounds spanning fashion, product design, and holistic wellness, they've built a company that seamlessly integrates purpose, profitability, and principled leadership.
Tune in as Justine, Susan, and Brad reveal how shared values, resilience through personal challenges, commitment to sustainable practices, and a radical approach to business can create a brand that transcends traditional profit-making models while inspiring meaningful change.
Connect with Susan and Brad:
Susan Griffin-Black is a visionary product designer and co-founder of EO Products, with a background in fashion and a passion for natural wellness. After a transformative experience in a London apothecary, she studied aromatherapy and cosmetic chemistry, becoming an expert in essential oils. Her innovative approach to product development and commitment to transparency has been instrumental in shaping the natural personal care industry.
Brad Black, a former clothing manufacturer, brings extensive production expertise and a strong commitment to sustainable business practices to EO Products. With a background in recycled fabrics and ethical manufacturing, he has been crucial in developing the company's operational strategy. His focus on responsible decision-making and community-driven business models has been key to the company's success.
In 1995, Susan and Brad co-founded EO Products, leveraging their complementary skills and shared values to create a pioneering natural personal care brand. Starting with four blends for the Bloomingdale's catalog, they built a company dedicated to using pure essential oils, sustainable packaging, and transparent manufacturing. Their partnership, rooted in mutual respect and a vision for better-for-you products, has sustained EO Products through 30 years of growth and innovation in the natural products market.
Episode Highlights:
01:02 Partners in Purpose: Brad and Susan’s Journey to a Values-Driven Business
05:38 The No Margin, No Mission Business Philosophy
08:57 The Heart of EO: Transparency, Authenticity, Community, Communication
13:18 Advice for New Entrepreneurs
17:18 The Business of Receiving
22:20 Sustainability Challenges
28:34 Mindfulness in Business and Life
37:34 Better is Better
43:33 Creating a Meaningful Business Legacy
Tweets:
Breaking the traditional business mold: Meet two founders who chose values over volume as @justine.reichman interviews @eoproducts co-founders Brad and Susan on how they created a company they actually want to work for. #podcast #entrepreneurship #socialgood #inspiration #impactmatters #NextGenChef #EssentialIngredients #Season9 #EOProducts #essentialoils #BusinessInnovation #Leadership #Sustainability BusinessWithPurpose #Wellness
Inspirational Quotes:
03:25 "We wanted to create a company that we wanted to work for" —Susan Griffin-Black
05:07 “In the old days, families worked together, like on a farm, and that's the model we wanted to create for ourselves at EO Products.” —Brad Black
05:38 "No margin, no mission" —Susan Griffin-Black
08:11 "Essential oils are real... They are our touchstone because of agricultural plants and the realness and how we're all connected." —Susan Griffin-Black
16:08 "If we want to create a company that we want to work for, we also want to have a company that they want to work for." —Brad Black
16:18 "We created products that we wanted to use." —Susan Griffin-Black
18:15 "The values of our culture are more like, are you successful? How much money? It’s very material." —Susan Griffin-Black
19:04 "We want to see that we are needed. It's a core, heartfelt thing." —Brad Black
19:24 "We're as strong as the weakest link of our employees. We're in this all together." —Brad Black
20:59 "We need to come together to create a platform where people can connect and do different things." —Justine Reichman
23:18 "I think so many of the founders that I talked to, and it's all from a place of passion, and to show how somebody could build a business that is impactful and makes money." —Justine Reichman
24:39 "We want to show what our intention is through our actions" —Brad Black
37:34 "More is not better. Better is better" —Susan Griffin-Black
42:36 "Lifelong learning is so important because it keeps us flexible and vital and curious" —Susan Griffin-Black
42:44 "A minute is a minute, and how do you choose to spend that minute. We're worrying about a future event that hasn't unfolded yet. Get out of the worry space that's more of an emotional feeling, and move it into a transactional space that can actually then be addressed." —Brad Black
43:34 "My mom always said, wait to worry." —Justine Reichman
44:56 "Meditation isn't about being in that zen moment... It's about knowing you'll get knocked out and having the awareness to get back on track." —Brad Black
45:21 “Meditation isn't about learning how to meditate better. It's about really observing what happens in our mind when we sit still.” —Susan Griffin-Black
45:43 "It's not about getting good at these things. It's about accepting what is actually happening right now and working with that as best as we're able." —Susan Griffin-Black
Transcription:
Justine Reichman: Good morning, and welcome to Essential Ingredients. I'm Justine, your host. I'm excited today to share with you a very special episode. What makes this special is not only did we talk to the Co-Founders, we were in person and behind the scenes. You're not going to want to miss this, so stay tuned.
Hi guys, thanks so much for joining me today.
Susan Griffin-Black: We're just so happy to be here. Thank you.
Brad Black: Thank you as well.
Justine Reichman: Yeah. So for those folks that are tuning in today and can watch, we're here at EO with Brad and Susan. I'm going to learn all about essential oils, because I'm guessing that that's what EO stands for.
Susan Griffin-Black: It does.
Justine Reichman: You guys have been around for 30 years, that's a long time. Well done. So how'd you guys get together to start this company together?
Susan Griffin-Black: I think Brad and I met in 1989? Is that where I have that note from you?
Brad Black: I was manufacturing clothes at the time, and Susan came into my warehouse in June of 1988, and I wrote her a thank you letter for coming over. And then she kept it.
Susan Griffin-Black: So we were shopping for my boyfriend at the time. I was going on a scavenger hunt around the world, and he worked on a spree. And Maniac, Brad's company, offered to give him a wardrobe for his scavenger hunt adventure. And that's how we met.
Justine Reichman: And what did you go in there to do?
Susan Griffin-Black: Well, I was a stylist.
Justine Reichman: How do we go from stylist and fashion to essential oils?
Susan Griffin-Black: Well, I've been a product person forever. I was a clothing designer in my past life, and then I was looking for a change. I was in London and found this little shop, Apothecary, and walked in the door, and the smell was so honest and unusual. I had like a flashback to my grandma's garden, lilacs and fireflies, and tomatoes. But It was actually lavender that I smelled, and I was so interested, curious and intrigued about essential oils. That just sort of took me right in. And then I was like, I knew what I wanted to study and learn more about. And then the other part of it was Brad's and my offices were in the same building, and we were friends for years. We dated for a while, and then we got married, and then we got divorced, sort of trajectory. And now, we're family and business partners for all this time, right? But I think essentially, we've always had the same drive, ambition, values, and wanted to create a company that we wanted to work for.
Justine Reichman: That's amazing. And the whole trajectory is just amazing. From friends to family, to the whole thing and still working together. Because working with family can be hard. I worked with my mom, that was a challenge. It looks like it's worked out really, really well 30 years later. So you went into this Apothecary, and you were inspired to create something along these lines?
Susan Griffin-Black: Yes. And so started studying aromatherapy, took a crash course in cosmetic chemistry. Brad was winding down his clothing company, but the thing that Brad really brought to the party was he was already manufacturing products. Why don't you just talk a little bit about what you were doing with recycled fabrics and just the whole Maniac concept?
"We wanted to create a company that we wanted to work for" —Susan Griffin-Black
Brad Black: Well, we believed in the same thing, and how we got there was a little different. We shared the ethos still to this day, and it really does carry us through those tough times, and the bond. And so we both had a vision of how we wanted to engage in the workspace, but also in our lives. We just had this deep resonance. And it was apparent to me on that first meeting, and then we just became great pals and friends. And then it developed, like a lot of relationships do. And so in the business space, we, in the old days, families worked together on the farm. That's such a great example. And so it's kind of the model that we wanted to create for ourselves, knowingly or maybe even unknowingly. And so we wanted to create a company that we wanted to work for, understanding what the constraints in business are like. You have to be profitable. And the values, mission and passion only go so far as you got to have that cash flow.
Susan Griffin-Black: No margin, no mission, as we said.
Brad Black: And so in this arena of wanting to work for a company that really resonated with us is organic or natural, or the triple bottom line, or the golden rule of treating people how you want to be treated. And that ethos, as you mentioned, the core is what has driven us all through the years. Lots of bumps in business and in life, yet it's that core belief that has ultimately kept us together.
Justine Reichman: That's amazing. I mean, to create a business that people want to stay at. I was talking to some of the people here, one person here who said she's been here 11 years, and she's like a baby. So it tells you that there's something unique about this environment that you guys have created that creates stability, creates loyalty, creates family, which is really nice to see, because a lot of companies you see today, people are in and out there want to get a new job to make more money. They have to work on being able to pay their bills, which is important, as you said, no margin, no mission. But here you have a mix of both. So I'd love to just jump in and talk about the idea of building a better-for-you business and the role that these essential oils play in it for you in particular. So for those folks that are not familiar with EO, could you just tell us a little bit about it?
Susan Griffin-Black: Oh, sure. So EO, we started by doing four blends for the Bloomingdale's catalog in 1995, and we had to quickly come up with a name. I sat next to our friend who was a graphic designer at Apple, and we had these very little bottles, very concentrated blends to make, and we had to come up with a name and a concept. So we thought about it, and we were very specific about type and a very minimalist attitude. And came up with EO, for Essential Oils, because everyone who was doing aromatherapy at the time was talking about Cleopatra. This has been around for 2500 years, and we wanted it to be relevant and modern. And people didn't really understand that, and we didn't have a leaf on our packaging when we got into Whole Foods. We sort of stood out because of it. It was sort of a mixed bag, review wise. But I would say essential oils are real. And the example I use often is that they make incredible artificial flowers. You can have a real rose and a beautiful silk rose across the room, and think, wow, they're the same. And as you get closer and you bend down to smell one, it's alive, it's resonant. It's part of us. And the other was made in a factory, wherever it was, and there's no vitality. So essential oils are our touchstone, because of agriculture plants and the realness, and how we're all connected.
Brad Black: Essential oils are like the bar. We hear the saying, what? No bull in the china shop, or however that goes. We can't embrace all of the wonderful attributes in a pure essential oil. And so that eliminates a lot of ingredients, why would you spoil an essential oil with an ingredient that doesn't enhance it more, or at least maintain it? And so through the years, that has just been a consistency. They're more expensive, they're harder to work with. The shelf life isn't as long. There's just a lot of reasons not to do it. Yet, it is the core of our brand and the ethos.
Justine Reichman: Today, everybody's all about transparency and what's in it. And we're all reading these labels to know, do we know these products? Do we know these ingredients? Can we even pronounce them? And I know that way back when it almost sounds like you were at the forefront of this a little bit, making this available and accessible to people. So I have to imagine, what role did education play in that for you? Because people have to make a choice to buy this, and there's lots of good reasons, but I don't know that people originally knew why.
Susan Griffin-Black: They didn't. Once they used the product, or sampled the product, or smelled the product, then they had a response. And that was our original core customer base that we still have. But I think in terms of education, it was really in the experience more than anything.
Justine Reichman: Oh, interesting, because there's lots of products out there. I know when I go to the store now, more than ever, I'm reading what's on the label. So when I read your label, and I read another label, because there's a lot of people in this space now, what is something that you want people to recognize about yours that's different from the others?
Brad Black: Our request is, don't look at the back of the product. Look at the front of it. There are certain guidelines that we have to follow. You gotta list all of the ingredients in order. Yet, what people aren't aware of is who's making it and how they make decisions making the product. And one example of getting lost in some of these ingredients, orange juice is something that was brought up. So orange juice from concentrate is the same on the back of a label as orange juice freshly squeezed. And so if we're going to list it inky wise, orange juice is going to be on there. Yet, we do know that there's a huge difference between orange juice from concentrate and freshly squeezed orange juice. And so the education, or the request to consumers is to look at who's making the decisions. That's like, what's the ethos of the company? And that's the point that really sticks out for us. Some of our compadres out there in the industry, but most don't. Most are driving down costs, driving up marketing and trying to create a perception versus we're just trying to go to work every day and do our best. And I think that's how it shows up differently in the product.
Susan Griffin-Black: I also think, because we committed, because of Brad's expertise and mindset in terms of flexibility, just being able to figure it out to be makers, because we couldn't find people to make products the way that we wanted to. So it was just the beginning of the natural foods business, and we took our cues from food and then into personal care as much as possible. And we got to grow up with making the standards and participating in the natural products industry from the time Whole Foods probably had, what? 40 stores. So we've been such a part of this really supportive and unique community of people, and that kept us going a lot. I think that we've all kept each other going a lot.
Justine Reichman: And it sounds like you've actually been part of the process to create the standards and to create change in that space in very much of a leadership way, not like you were coming into it late in the game. You were there in the beginning, trying to set those standards, which I think is amazing.
Susan Griffin-Black: Well, I think that the other thing that's unique is neither of us has any background in chemistry fragrance, so we didn't know the difference. And that happens sometimes with the starting point. Our starting point was we're totally committed to essential oils. So what does that mean? We didn't even really know anything about synthetic fragrance. But later when people came to try to sell us synthetic fragrance, it was so much less expensive, so much easier to work with. But we were like, you can get Vinaigrette at McDonald's on a salad, and Alice Waters with her five ingredients. Same thing with ingredients and lavender. Is it lavender? Is it from the same species? Is it from France? Is it unadulterated? Do you know how it's grown? Do you know the weather? All of those things make it all real.
Justine Reichman: And it sounds like there's a lot of education. As you said, you took those crash courses to be able to learn it, but you also got a huge amount of training on the job. We did a huge amount of training. You get this idea, and it's an infant of an idea. And all of a sudden, you're learning all these things. As a founder, as somebody that's built these businesses from the beginning, what would you say to another founder that's tuning in today that might be listening and say, okay, you're right. I have an idea. But what do I do next?
"If we want to create a company that we want to work for, we also want to have a company that they want to work for." —Brad Black
Brad Black: We know the path. The path is really what feels right and what resonates. And essential oils have been a big part of our path. Another very important aspect that we followed is community. We made products for our kids, like, why wouldn't we do our best for our kids and our broader family, and then for close friends and for farther away friends, and then it's just consumers. Then it expands from there to the earth, just taking care. So these were the initial guiding principles for us. And so a message to other founders is these feelings and beliefs that really give us the passion to be in the business, to get over those consistent bumps, bad cash flow and all those issues. It's the passion that really drives it. So having some clarity to really what drives essential oils, community and there's some others, the folks that we work with here, we're just two people on the big gear, and it's about all of us. So if we want to create a company that we want to work for, we also want to have a company that they want to work for.
Susan Griffin-Black: Yeah. Those are the same things, I think. And I would also say too, that we created products that we wanted to use. Sometimes in more traditional marketing, and certainly now with AI and everything being so data driven and so much analysis. That wasn't the case when we started. It was sort of a really instinctual decision to say, smell this, do you like this? And then pass it around the office and say, you know what? Do you use this? And that's how we started, because we wanted it to be, it was the greater good. It was for us, it was for our kids, it was for family, it was for community. And because we were some part of something bigger in the natural products industry, which was really a better for your industry, and commitment, then that momentum was just really helpful in staying on our path to have that support.
Justine Reichman: I find it so interesting. Because I talked to a lot of founders, and a lot of people are like, well, I had a passion for it. And it's the same reason for me. I get up every morning excited to do what I'm going to do. I want to have an impact. I want to make a difference. I want to inspire. I want to create change. And as I'm talking to you and to other founders, people are telling you the same thing. They're inspired to do this. And I feel like it's a very special place to be able to have a business that you like, that you'd want to work with, that you could support other people, to be happy to come to, to provide a livelihood, and to make something that's better for you.
"We created products that we wanted to use." —Susan Griffin-Black
Susan Griffin-Black: Because I think that we all value self expression. And self expression, meaning that you're really living your life in accordance with your values, and it's a privilege. Although it can be, it's not taught. It's not the values of our culture. The values of our culture are more like, are you successful? How much money? And I think that was just part of our motive, because we had to pay, of course, rent. But that wasn't the driver. And so people who start companies who want to get in, want to get out, and the product is kind of over there because they think it will be successful.
Justine Reichman: It's a different conversation, I think.
Brad Black: To expand on that a little bit. And you mentioned this before about a desire that many people have to want to contribute. We want to see and feel that there's a need for us. There's 8 billion plus people in the world, and we want to see that we are needed. It's a core, heartfelt thing. What's missing a lot in business and clarity from other founders is, how can we contribute while being passionate to our own visions? How does the community fit in? We're strong as the weakest link of, say employees here. We're in this all together. That's overused. Yet, we make products for us, and we make products for you. They are the same. All of our plastic bottles cost 15% more because they're made from recycled content. We don't charge more for that. We want to sell our product at local grocery stores for $599. We're not charging 1,299, although we could. And many people do so. How do we choose to contribute and engage with this concept of, I want to be of value. I want to be in service to others. I want others to see me as something that's positive in their lives. And that's up to them to decide. It's not up to us to decide.
Justine Reichman: Do you think that conversation, I think it has evolved over the years. Because when I graduated from university, everybody was going into banking, advertising, all these different things. Not to say that there's anything bad with them, but it was like, my clients were UPS and these other things. I didn't personally feel like I was having an impact in the world. And when I think about it, that conversation for myself only happened around the year 2000 where all of a sudden, I changed. And I was like, no, I want to do this.
"We're as strong as the weakest link of our employees. We're in this all together." —Brad Black
Susan Griffin-Black: What made you change?
Justine Reichman: Well, I was at the movies on 19th Street in New York City. And basically, there was a community of people. It was like sorority that got up to make a difference, to lobby something in this film that I was watching. And I was like, that's it. It's a community. We need to come together to create a platform where people can connect and do different things. And for me, I was in the middle of a career transition, so I created a community around people connecting to make more informed choices around their careers, and to bring speakers in so that people could figure out how to do that, how to lean into what they're good at, and what they're passionate about. It was called Career Change Network. I started that around the year 2000. And basically, Essential Ingredients is kind of the same model, which is bringing people together, sharing resources, and giving people a platform so that they can inspire others to make more informed choices or innovate in a different way based on stories, information and education. That's what started with this movie. I'm embarrassed to tell you what movie it was. It's called Legally Blonde. But you remember when they all get up? That was the moment. I know it sounds silly, the story. I never saw it. I've heard of the blonde hair girl, what's her name? Witherspoon. And she gets all her dogs, is gonna be her dog's mom, and is gonna be used for animal testing. So she was trying to get this bill passed. If there's like a line you call the sorority, and every single person puts their phone up and tries to get the next person to help out. And that was sort of the inspiration, as silly as it says.
Susan Griffin-Black: It's not silly. The way we got into our first Whole Foods, because the buyers were like, you had to go one store at a time, right? We called first. Brad used to call. Hello. Do you have EO? Guerilla Marketing at its finest. And then we got all the people at our daughter's school to put notes on the community board to say, where's EO? We really want EO. And finally, they responded. It sort of goes back to that Margaret Mead, totally overused saying. When you have a small passionate group of people, you can change the world. And that's really what it?
Justine Reichman: I think so. I'm happy to be in your company to hear these stories, because it just resonates so much with me. I hope our founders do as well. Because I think so many of the founders that I talked to, they were having a kid, they found a need, or they moved to a new place, and they realized it's something that was missing from their new place, and it's all from a place of fashion. And to show how somebody could build a business that is impactful makes money. So it's mission and margin together, and support of a local community is huge. There's two things I'd love to touch on. One is the community aspect. Because you're pretty big in our community here in the Bay Area. People know EO. You go into the hotels, it's in there. You go into the restaurants, it's in there in the bathrooms. Before I was NextGen Purpose, I was NextGenChef, and you guys gave us antibacterial soap for one of our events. It's everywhere. I just want to know what role the community that we live in outside of the EO house here plays for you guys.
Brad Black: There's a little bit of a selfish response in that. And that is the local community. There's a variety of different types of communities. The local community provides an opportunity to have a face to face, to be an actual physical relationship. That's one thing that's really important. And then the second part of it is we want to show what our intention is through our actions, and our community is a sounding board for us. Talk is cheap. Ideas are abundant. Yet, how you play the game of life in business, at home and all avenues is reflected in relationships within communities, in the feedback and so you. It's about the actions, and then it's about engaging enough to see if there's resonance and appreciation for actions. I can't determine, hey, I want to be nice. It's baseless. Yet, if people start to engage with me and say, they're not going to say that, Brad, you're nice. But there's ways for others to decide how we contribute to them. It's not up to me to decide.
Susan Griffin-Black: Yeah. I think there's this idea that we sort of reflect off of each other. We all sort of hold up a mirror, and then it's our ability to respond. And when you're doing something for us that is really wholehearted and values aligned, regardless of the difficulty. And there have been many, many, many that there's sort of a through line, because it really is heartfelt. That is resonant because it's so human, and that's really the sort of foundation of transparency. The foundation of transparency isn't, look at us. We're transparent. We're going to just tell you, ask us anything. We'll give you our most honest response. But it's not to get anything. It's to give. We were just talking about giving back. There's no back. It's thrown away. Where's the way? There's no back. People, humans have always given in the best and worst of circumstances. It's our natural tendency.
Justine Reichman: It's important to give and receive, I believe. I receive, you give, and I receive. And then we have this goes over and over, and over again. And I think that sort of supports the whole idea of it, because it keeps feeding it, so to speak. The more reception you get, the more you keep giving. Goes back and forth.
Brad Black: Yes. And then the other part of that that I struggle with a little bit is I love to give. Receiving is a little hard. And so in order for the dynamic to work, I got to work on myself to be able to receive. And it's just such an interesting dynamic and conversation. It's got to go both ways.
Justine Reichman: I think a lot of people have trouble with one or the other. It's not uncommon at all. I love to give too. It's kind of, they say your love language. I love to give, and there's so many ways to give. It could be giving verbally. It could be giving a gift. It could be so many doing something in a positive way, so many different things. But receiving, like you said, it's a little bit more challenging. I was very good at it as a kid. Here in Marin, and specifically Mill Valley, I'm going to say there's a lot of conversation around sustainability. When we did this event in Mill Valley, I remember the rules and regulations around what you were allowed to serve things on and put things in, which takes me to your packaging and the sustainability aspect, and what role it plays in it for you, I know you mentioned that it's recycled plastic, which is obviously great. But there's so many different issues today that people are talking about. And on a local level, every area has different rules around what you can recycle, what you can compost, what you can do. I'm just wondering how that played out for you with your product?
Susan Griffin-Black: Friends of mine wrote a book 35 years ago called Paper or Plastic. They were very advanced too. There were people who were at Spirit and people who started the Rainforest Action Network, and the OG environmentalists, and we've really been on a parallel path, really looking, watching and learning. Not more proactive than reactive, and not hopping on the latest trend, because the problems are real. When you make something, there's always waste. So then you have to counter that by being zero waste. And glass is an option, or aluminum tubes might be an option. But the making of that packaging and the energy that it takes to make that packaging. There's all kinds of challenges across the board in making those decisions, and we really tried to study where practical. And the idea of innovation really has to be long term.
Justine Reichman: So with that in mind, how did you make your decisions for what you're using? And how do you do it?
Brad Black: This sustainable thing just makes me want to gag. I believe in the intention and the concept of it. It started with organic, then it moved into sustainability. Now, it's this whole concept of regen. And where the conversation needs to be is, how do you make the right decision? Regen is all right? Well, let's fix something. Let's renew it. Yet, we're not talking about why we got to the place to renew. It's what Susan said before about giving back. Well, people have a sense of giving back because they're taking a lot, so then they feel better because they take a lot. And now that we're giving back, well, the conversation should be, don't take as much. So how do you make responsible decisions in finance? How do you make responsible decisions in marketing? We're not just trying to create a perception in marketing that we care about the earth that's really coming out in actions. And so I love the idea about what is responsible. Let's have a conversation about how we make decisions, and not kicking this can down the road. Not having the bigger conversation of, we need to take care of the planet and be sustainable in the first decision that we make about packaging. And so we're making decisions on packaging really for us, because I don't think that a large percentage of the population really cares. Look at the number of people that don't recycle.
Justine Reichman: I'm with you. I find the whole thing very confusing, and I also don't know how to make those choices. Let's take it out of this product. Look at food. Go out to dinner. Now, I have leftovers. Am I better off taking my leftovers and putting them in the takeaway stuff that's made of styrofoam, plastic or whatever? Or am I better off leaving them? Now, I ask this because if I bring home anything in styrofoam or whatever, Tim's always like that, such wasteful. I'm like, I tried to bring a container, but they don't want to use my container. So am I better off wasting the food? And I use that as a small example.
Brad Black: It's a big example, because everything really points to waste. And then how each of us participate, what does that mean to us?
Justine Reichman: Yeah, right. How do I make that choice? How do you make that choice?
Susan Griffin-Black: It's very different depending on beliefs, education, how you live your life, values. Marin is crazy. The garbage situation in Marin, I can't tell you how much time I spend re-sorting.
Justine Reichman: In Larkspur, too. I have to keep reading to figure out, can this be recycled or not?
Susan Griffin-Black: We do dumpster dives here, which is how we got to zero waste.
Brad Black: Wow. I think styrofoam takeaway at the restaurant is better than paper. The reason is that people see that styrofoam is garbage, and then they'll throw it away. The thing with paper is that it's still not recyclable, right? Because it's like, if you take a piece of paper and put water on it, the water is going to absorb through the paper, and then it's just going to go through. You get a paper cup at the coffee place. It's lined with plastic, and so it's not recyclable. And so there's this misperception, or there's this multiple billions of dollars spent on creating a perception that somebody is actually doing good. But really, what they're doing is spending billions of dollars creating a perception, which is why we'll go back to what you started with. You want to look at the front of the bottle and have an understanding of who owns it. How do they go about making decisions about making their products? Plastic is an issue, and we do need to evolve away from plastic. Yet, we got to first work on recycling, and then we have to come up with alternatives. But it's not going to happen really quickly. You don't want glass bottles that your kids use in the bath. That just creates another issue. So there's an evolution here, and it's common sense.
Susan Griffin-Black: But also, you have other problems with glass in terms of manufacturing and shipping. So it's a kind of 50 to 100 year process.
Justine Reichman: Probably not in our lifetime.
Susan Griffin-Black: Well, it's evolving. Because if you're thinking about it, it's evolving. One of our best friends competitors, Dr. Bronner's is doing their products now half in recycled plastic and half in milk cartons for refill, and they did an extensive study to determine that that was the best way to the best next thing, because of weight and energy resourcing and so forth. I don't know, really. I mean, from an esthetic point of view, not so much. It's too confusing for people. It's not intuitive. For us, we're tremendous respect and we're very different in our presentation. So part of it is that sincerely, that from a design point of view and what you would want to use, and how that feels. And then the other part of it equally as important is the functionality, and knowing what to do before and after you have that product.
Brad Black: I just want to go back. Something comes up in that conversation, but it goes back to the takeout container. So we've been intentional here at work to move away from this idea of work life balance to life balance. And we can't give someone life balance, but we can offer them an opportunity through their time at work for greater life balance. And so I went to Okinawa, and I checked out because it's a blue zone. People live to 100 plus years, and they have a lot of different types of habits. And one of the things is that they only eat 80% of the food that they want. So the answer to, what should you take out your extra food in? Well, don't have extra food. I'm a big foodie. I eat, and I overeat. Not many people do. However, I'm trying to start a new habit where I'm ordering about 80%. It's a little bit of a bummer because one more bite of that hamburger or whatever salad, it would be great. Yet, it's ordering the 80% so that you don't have to have a container to take it away.
Justine Reichman: When I'm at home, or if I'm at a friend's house for dinner, I always take a little bit, and I go back for more because I don't like to leave it on my plate. I also like to make sure I like it. I was raised that my parents were like, you don't have to eat your whole plate. Take a little, and try it. And if you're hungry, go back for more. But I think it's a philosophy also, and how we were raised, and how we do things. If you go to the Midwest and you get these enormous portions, and it's the clean plate club, right? That's one thing. Then you have other places where you pay more, and you get less. Now, I generally like less, not that I want to pay more, but I don't need more. I appreciate what I'm getting. I don't need more to appreciate it. But I think it's a really interesting conversation, because there's a lot of people that feel like they need to clean their plate.
Susan Griffin-Black: I think more is not better. Better is better. And culturally and for all sorts of reasons, we always think more is better, bigger is better. And it's just not true in my experience. I can only speak for myself, but I'm just saying that there's the perception of scarcity, or the fear of scarcity, or whatever that really contributes to the whole cycle.
Justine Reichman: During COVID, what was it? The toilet paper or water? I mean, there was a variety of hand sanitizer. Everybody collected it like they couldn't get any more, and I think that that mindset that's going to impact the next generation of people that live through that and how they then do things. I feel like coming from New York and growing up in Manhattan, we lived in an apartment and those things. And if you move to the suburbs, the country, upstate or Pittsburgh, you get a much bigger house for a lot less money. And then we move here, and you get nothing for a lot of money. My point is that my whole mindset around what I want and what I need changes based on my experience, on where we are. So when I came here and I went to look for places to live, I'm like, wow, this place is old and dumpy. And it's really expensive. But people pay a lot of money for it because they like the surroundings. So we change what becomes important to us and how we value what we have. And so whether it's your house, or your food, or your ingredients, it comes down to what you're saying, which is the person, the people. Because I just run it full circle, at least for myself that I was like, all of a sudden, I'm making those choices. And people are looking at the choices I'm making, as opposed to making those decisions because somebody else is telling me it's lived experience. I know that there's so many interesting topics that we talked about, and I love that because I think it's expansive, both for our guests and our listeners, as well as myself participating in this conversation. I really love that. I do want to circle back so that those people that are interested in making more informed choices and building a business where the community, your employees are part of it, and family, and having that good experience. Can you give people just a couple ideas or concepts that they can think about to make sure that they include to have a similar result?
Brad Black: When we stand in life as 20, 30 or 40 years old, we look forward, and there's a lot of unknown. What I have started to do as I get older is I'm looking backwards in the future. In other words, on my deathbed. I want to look back. My legacy is important. There are some things that I want to accomplish in life. Now in business, you could look at it the same way. How do you want to give back profits and all that sort of stuff? You can actually take a place in the future, look back and then create sort of a ladder to get to. It's about each of the steps, and that's been very helpful for me because it creates a known end point. Hey, I want to get to the roof, so I take each step to go up. You can do the same thing in business and in life. You can set these things, and then you can look back to see if each step is reasonable.
Justine Reichman: I couldn't agree more. I also think that people don't realize that these steps take time. How often do we hear that, oh, remember when Oatly got really popular and people thought it happened overnight? That took a lot of years. That didn't happen overnight. So I think that that's something really important for people to remember that it takes time.
Susan Griffin-Black: And to value that, it takes time. It's perfectly okay, as long as you're learning, as long as you feel a sense of purpose and meaning. And a sense of belonging to something that's bigger, that it's expansive, then it's fine that it takes time. That's how you're spending your day. And so the enjoyment of how you're spending your day, or the challenge of how you're spending your day, or the ability to be present with what is happening now and who you're with now is a key part of that, because that's all we got.
"My mom always said, wait to worry." —Justine Reichman
Justine Reichman: I looked back the other day and I was like, wow, I did this. And all of a sudden, all these things were coming to fruition. And I think that that's pivotal for people to realize, all of a sudden, that hard work turns into something tangible, and it takes a while. It didn't happen overnight. You created the hand cream that's humming French lavender, right? But all of a sudden, you have these things, and then you expand on them, and then you have the next thing.
Susan Griffin-Black: And you keep evolving, keep evolving, and you keep questioning, and you keep learning. Lifelong learning is so important because it keeps us flexible, vital and curious.
Brad Black: A minute is a minute. How you choose to spend that minute and looking forward, it's unknown. But looking back, I want to look back at the last minute, and I want to be peaceful now. I know life can be a bit of a cluster, and we spend a lot of time in this space called worry. We're worrying about a future event that hasn't unfolded yet, so it's kind of getting out of that. Now, bad cash flow can create a lot of worry in business. If there's a way that you can actually be very specific about what those cash flow issues are, it's just an example that could be brought up. Write them down, and just start to address it. Get out of the worry space that's more of an emotional feeling, and move it into a transactional space that can actually then be addressed.
Justine Reichman: I think that's brilliant. My mom always said, wait to worry.
Susan Griffin-Black: Great advice. I love that.
Brad Black: And easier said than done.
Justine Reichman: Totally. But if you can remember to say that, that's half the battle, right? You're halfway there.
Susan Griffin-Black: Also when you're in the flow and you're just doing whatever you're doing, and you're not worrying because you're just with it, of course, it lasts as long as it lasts. But you can see the difference of being in the present, being in the flow and where that takes you. Then when things stop and you have to overthink things, and then you start thinking about things, and then the worry comes in. And then so you just really have to return to, how does your body feel?
Justine Reichman: And worry, you get this immediate reaction in your head. We have fear, yes, and that lasts for a little bit of time. But if you can get through that time and not react during that time, you can get past it and be more thoughtful about it, as opposed to reactionary.
Brad Black: And where to work on that isn't about trying to create less worry in your life, because worry will always come along. The practice point on this is knowing that a worry place will come up and being active in getting out of the worry. It's like meditation. Meditation, for me, isn't about being in that zen mode. Moment meditation, for me, is knowing that I'm going to get knocked out of meditation, and then having the awareness to get back on track. So worry about bad cash flow, all those things will happen. Be less resistant toward that, but more determined about how to get out of it.
Susan Griffin-Black: I think that's really true. I also think that meditation isn't about learning how to meditate better. It's about really observing what happens in our mind when we sit still, and being able to be more compassionate, curious, hopefully loving and accepting. So it's not a matter of getting good at these things. It's a matter, to me, of accepting what is actually happening right now, and then working with that as best as we're able.
Justine Reichman: I’ll talk about the meditation thing for a second. I remember one time that I went to this meditation. This is 100 years ago, but I went there and they're like, okay, you need to create a place in your mind and focus on that. And that never really worked for me. I can picture myself on a beach in the Virgin Islands, but I was so busy trying to figure out what they meant to do that I didn't realize I had already been meditating. Every time I sit on the train and I'm going up the Hudson Valley, and I'm looking out at the trees, my mind is blank because all I'm doing is looking there. And to me, that was very meditative.
Brad Black: It's a good example. I'm not a good meditator either.
Justine Reichman: We do it, and we're not thinking about it sometimes.
Susan Griffin-Black: And that really is what it is.
Justine Reichman: Well, guys, I want to thank you so much for joining me today. I know that our community is going to love this episode because it really talked about all the essential ingredients of everything, the product, building business, everything. It was great to meet you both. So thank you.
Susan Griffin-Black: Thank you. It was really great to all be together.
Brad Black: Appreciate the conversation
Justine Reichman: Thank you to our community that tunes in each week to hear these conversations. And if you do have any questions, what's the best way for anybody to reach out?
Brad Black: We have eoproducts.com, I think that's a good place to start.
Susan Griffin-Black: Just to take a little further, susan@eoproducts.com, and bradb@eoproducts.com.
Justine Reichman: Awesome. I'm justine@nextgenpurpose.com. Thanks so much. Thank you, Chloe.
Susan Griffin-Black: Thank you.
Brad Black: Thank you Chloe.
Justine Reichman: Hey, all. I just wanted to thank you guys, whether you're our new loyal listeners, whether you're watching it and viewing it from YouTube, but thank you for tuning in today. I want to thank our guests for giving us an inside look at what it takes to build a brand, and to root yourselves in sustainability and transparency, so thank you. And for those that are tuning in today that are new and really don't know how to find our videocast, or are not sure of our outlets, our videocast can be found either on our website, @nextgenpurpose.com, or on YouTube. We have an Essential Ingredients channel. And for those that want to tune into the podcast, wherever you listen to your podcast, you can find the Essential Ingredients Podcast with Justine, so thanks again for tuning in. See you next week.
