EI S9 Ep55: Reframing Sustainability: Discover the Positive, Empowering Way Forward with Charlie Sellars
“To be an effective climate optimist and person who cares about sustainability, you need equal parts of two different ingredients. The first is inspiration, because if you don't believe you can make a difference, and if you don't believe that what you do matters, then you're not going to try. You also need the other ingredient of empowerment. If you are really, really encouraged to try to make a difference, but you're not given the tools or the knowledge, then all that energy dissipates and becomes wasted.” —Charlie Sellars
What if sustainability wasn’t a burden, but an invitation? For too long, we’ve been told to shrink our impact and feel guilty for not doing enough. But what if the real power lies in small, positive choices that actually feel good and make a difference?
Charlie Sellars, the Director of Sustainability at Microsoft and author of What We Can Do: A Climate Optimist's Guide to Sustainable Living, has spent his career turning eco-anxiety into practical, empowering action. His journey proves that you don’t need to be perfect—or even an expert—to make sustainability work for your life, your business, and your happiness.
Tune in as Justine and Charlie break down how to reframe sustainability from a source of stress into a source of strength, sharing real-life stories, actionable tips, and a new way to think about your impact—one that’s positive, empowering, and actually doable.
Connect with Charlie:
Charlie Sellars is a Director of Sustainability at Microsoft, which pledged to become Carbon Negative, Water Positive, Zero Waste, and Protect Ecosystems by 2030. As one of the youngest directors at the company, he has overseen sustainability for both the Windows & Devices and Cloud Operations portions of Microsoft, helping launch several sustainability-forward products ranging from new Windows PCs with repairable and recycled components to the Ocean Plastic Mouse.
Recognized by IM100 as one of 2024’s top 100 most impactful individuals in the digital infrastructure industry, Charlie also serves as a governing body member of the iMasons Climate Accord, an industry coalition united to decarbonize the digital infrastructure that underpins the next generation of cloud and AI services.
Charlie has previously served as a board member and CTO of an impact-focused non-profit, The $100 Solution, which believes that “solutions to big problems start with small steps.” He initially joined this non-profit while studying for his Bachelor of Arts degree in Physics from Williams College, a small liberal arts school nestled in the Berkshire mountains which helped to grow his love for nature.
Raised outside Milwaukee, Wisconsin, Charlie is currently based in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
Episode Highlights:
01:24 Ingredients for Climate Optimism
03:27 Challenges and Opportunities in Sustainability
09:45 Data-Driven Sustainability
12:12 Reducing Personal Impact and Sustainability in Business
17:08 Empowering Individuals for Sustainability
20:35 Dietary Impact on Sustainability
25:20 What We CAN Do
Resources
Book
What We Can Do: A Climate Optimist's Guide to Sustainable Living by Charlie Sellars
Tweets:
Small changes, big impact—no perfection required. Learn how to reframe sustainability and take action that fits your life as @justine.reichman interviews Microsoft’s Director of Sustainability, Charlie Sellars. #podcast #entrepreneurship #socialgood #inspiration #impactmatters #NextGenChef #EssentialIngredients #Season9 #Sustainability #PositiveChange #Empowerment #EcoFriendly #ClimateOptimism #GreenLiving #EcoTips
Inspirational Quotes:
01:33 “It’s what we can do, not what we must do; not what you should be doing, but what we can do.” —Charlie Sellars
02:21 “To be an effective climate optimist and person who cares about sustainability, you need equal parts of two different ingredients. The first is inspiration, because if you don't believe you can make a difference, and if you don't believe that what you do matters, then you're not going to try. You also need the other ingredient of empowerment. If you are really, really encouraged to try to make a difference, but you're not given the tools or the knowledge, then all that energy dissipates and becomes wasted.” —Charlie Sellars
02:01 “Rather than this shame-based approach of minimizing our footprint, the question can be, how do we transform that into a much more optimistic notion of maximizing our impact?” —Charlie Sellars
04:30 “When you’re trying to make sustainability happen, we had to shift that narrative away from sustainability is this critical planet mandate, and if we don’t do x, we’re all going to burn— to flipping it on its head and making it more of like an irresistible opportunity.” —Charlie Sellars
05:42 “People want to be invited to the table. They want it, but they want to be able to do it in a way that brings them joy.” —Charlie Sellars
09:18 “It wasn’t because people didn’t care about sustainability that it wasn’t happening. It’s just that no one had raised their hand to do it yet. No one had given themselves permission to do it yet.” —Charlie Sellars
12:15 “We don’t ever think about what it takes to go into what we’re getting.” —Justine Reichman
13:10 “Reduce, reuse, recycle… turns out that that is an amazing framework to also account for how we deal with the invisible impact upstream of when we get the device or when we get them the food or the car.” —Charlie Sellars
14:33 “I’m the one weird sustainability guy who’s going to tell you to keep driving your gas car, because if you throw it away too early, that’s actually a whole bunch of wasted emissions.” —Charlie Sellars
17:33 “You don’t just need sustainability in your job title to do sustainability.” —Charlie Sellars
19:20 “It’s not all or nothing. Oftentimes, people feel like it’s all or nothing. You come up against that too.” —Justine Reichman
23:44 “What’s ideal for you so that you can live a healthy, sustainable life may look different for me, but that’s okay— the goal is to live a healthy, better-for-you life.” —Justine Reichman
Transcription:
Justine Reichman: Good morning, and welcome to Essential Ingredients. I'm so excited to be with you here today. We have Charlie Sellars. And I want to just thank our loyal listeners that are tuning in, and those new listeners, I want to welcome you for carving out this time and deciding to spend it with us. It's so meaningful today. So today, Charlie is with me. Charlie is the Director of sustainability at Microsoft, and an author of What We Can Do: A Climate Optimist's Guide to Sustainable Living. And so I'm hoping with this conversation that we're going to have a whole new way of looking at things, maybe bring a little optimism into the conversation and shy away from the pessimism that's been so ingrained in today's world. So please, stay tuned. You're not going to want to miss this episode.
Charlie, for those folks tuning in today, I'm really excited to have you here to talk about maybe how we can reframe sustainability and think about incorporating it into our lives on a day to day basis, into our businesses. And maybe what I thought was really interesting that we could share is not having a pessimistic view, but maybe being optimistic if we can provide support and enthusiasm to people around what they're already doing.
“It’s what we can do, not what we must do; not what you should be doing, but what we can do.”
Charlie Sellars: Absolutely. And I think it even goes to the title of the book itself. It's what we can do, not what we must do. Not what you should be doing, but what we can do. And I think there has been a movement in environmentalism that has focused a lot on minimizing this notion that we need to minimize our footprint, which by the way, the notion of a carbon footprint was invented by the oil and gas industry. So who knows what their intentions were. So rather than this shame based approach of minimizing our footprint, the question can be, how do we transform that into a much more optimistic notion of maximizing our impact? And that's where the notion of the book really comes from. And since this is the Essential Ingredients Podcast, I did come up with some ingredients puns for the conversation to be kind of an effective climate optimist and person who cares about sustainability, you need equal parts, two different ingredients. The first is inspiration. Because if you don't believe you can make a difference, if you don't believe that what you do matters, then you're not going to make a difference. You're not going to try, and you won't have an impact. But you also need the other ingredient of empowerment. Because if you are really, really, really encouraged to try to make a difference, but you're not given the tools, or the knowledge, or the wherewithal, then all that energy kind of dissipates and becomes wasted. So my book tries to do a lot of the latter. Actually, the empowerment side of that, that ingredients cocktail, if you will, to make sure that the optimism isn't just a pie in the sky notion, it's a pragmatic, data driven, data backed framework we can use to understand the little things that all of us can do. Not what we must do, not what we should do, but the things that make sense for our lives to turn that dial a little bit more towards maximizing impact in our lives.
Justine Reichman: So as you're saying this, I'm thinking, that's what climate optimism is, isn't it? That's a new term for me. I haven't heard of that before. How did you get to that term, and what is it like to try to change the narrative for people from this pessimistic view? The world is drowning, especially in the whole world that we live in right now, to now saying, okay, let's be climate optimistic.
Charlie Sellars: Yeah. It's an awesome question, Justine. And part of it is just pragmatically what I experienced in my own career. I have this great fortune where, in addition to having written my book, What We Can Do, I'm also employed full time as a Director of sustainability at Microsoft. And when I first came into the company, I was asked to build out a team to drive sustainability in the devices part of the business. And I looked around and I realized that the reason that we weren't getting traction and really embedding sustainability in everything we did was because the framing was kind of inverted. And I think there is a righteous and a rightful understanding of the urgency, and of fear. And frankly, it's hard to always be optimistic when you see all the headlines. But when you're trying to make sustainability happen, we had to shift that narrative away from sustainability. Is this critical planet mandate, and if we don't do X, we're all going to burn, to flipping it on his head and making it more of like an irresistible opportunity. Saying like, hey, actually, this is a really exciting thing to work on. And like, I'm going to give you a whole bunch of plastic we dredged out of the ocean. I'm going to dump it on your table, and I'm going to say, what can you do with this? Turn it into a challenge. Turn it into something that is going to be fulfilling for people to work on, rather than draining because you might be taking the fear based approach instead.
Justine Reichman: Wow. I love that. I love that it just empowers people. I love that it gives people an opportunity to be creative. I mean, amazing. Congratulations. You're changing the framework and the way people think, and giving them the inspiration and the opportunity, really, to be able to create, change themselves, and innovate in a new way and feel positive about it. Not just taking something that somebody is giving them, saying, you have to do this or else? Okay, so here's the problem. Now, there's so many different ways we can fix this. What's your thoughts?
Charlie Sellars: And I think that people want to be invited to the table, but they want to be able to do it in a way that brings them joy. And it's really tricky sometimes. If you're a person at a company, and you have 10 things on your plate, and then they might also be good social impact things like, let's say that you're in charge of accessibility, and then you're also asked to focus on sustainability, then you sometimes have to make a choice of what you prioritize. And it's not that they're wrong for not prioritizing sustainability, but a good way for them to not prioritize sustainability is if they have a bad vibe when they're doing it, versus kind of getting them really excited, and letting people envision themselves coming along that journey with you, rather than judging them in advance for having not joined you on the journey yet.
“It wasn’t because people didn’t care about sustainability that it wasn’t happening. It’s just that no one had raised their hand to do it yet. No one had given themselves permission to do it yet.” —Charlie Sellars
Justine Reichman: No, it's true. And I'm sitting here and I'm going, okay, so tell me about your journey. How did you get from where you were at Microsoft to being able to now be given the keys to the kingdom to build the sustainability division so that you can empower people to create change in a meaningful way to them that will also be impactful to the world?
Charlie Sellars: It's awesome, and it's a fun journey. And Justine, you've secretly been doing a lot of the stuff that I did to get into sustainability along the way. And it all started back in the day. I got an undergraduate degree in physics. It was a Bachelor of Arts, which is fun. That just means I did it at a liberal arts school. So I got to do theater classes at the same time as quantum mechanics, but I didn't take a single class on sustainability. Because at the time, I was kind of being told that the way to do sustainability is to go become an environmental scientist. And even though I got a degree in physics, I'm not going to lie, Justine, I'm pretty bad at it to be a scientist. And so I just had been internalizing this notion that sustainability is not something that I can do because I don't have this skill set. So I went the complete opposite direction. I went into the consulting world. And I don't know how it kept happening, Justine, but they kept giving me oil and gas clients, literally. There was a day, I was at a dinner with a number of clients, and one of them, this is almost verbatim, just said, if you were to cut me open, my blood would be black because I bleed oil. And I'll always bleed oil. And honestly, Justine, that was the moment where I had that moment of self realization. Like, what am I doing right now? Is this what I want to be building my career around? And so I worked with my company to shift me into a different role that had an opportunity for more impact, and they put me in charge of an events portfolio. And here I am in charge of an events portfolio, and all I've been given of the charter is to have a group of heads of the supply chain that are your clients. You need to make sure they're happy. And I said, that's it. And they're like, yeah. So I'm like, go. I can have a meeting on anything I want, as long as it makes them happy. And they're like, yeah, yeah. I mean, God, obviously got to get results.
Justine Reichman: Sounds like a fun job. Just make your clients happy.
Charlie Sellars: A little bit more detailed than that, your retention metrics, etcetera.
Justine Reichman: Fundamentally, I have to meet all those things. All right, fair enough.
Charlie Sellars: Yeah. It's a business role. But the way to achieve that was left wide open to me. And that was kind of that first aha moment I had in my career of saying, well, why can't I make this job a sustainability job? And every single event that I had, I always layered on a little bit of a sustainability component. It wasn't just how you put on the event, but also the content in it. So I would bring in interesting speakers. I was able to use the budget to bring in the former head of the Sierra Club to do a talk to these folks. And really fun. It was at this moment that I realized that it wasn't because people didn't care about sustainability that it wasn't happening. It's just that no one had raised their hand to do it yet. No one had given themselves permission to do it yet. And I was just a lucky guy that tried it the first time, and they liked it. And actually, one of my clients was my future boss at Microsoft. I just didn't know it yet. She hired me in to lead her team as a result of hearing about sustainability so much at these events I was putting on.
Justine Reichman: I wanted to go back to something because I know you used a lot of data to figure out what people can do to introduce sustainability into their personal lives. And I'm just curious, what are some of those resources were, or those sources that you use that inspire the data for you to be able to choose and collect?
Charlie Sellars: An awesome question. So if you read the book, there's over 200 footnotes. I definitely spent a lot of time digging into things. Some of them are like 980 page long EPA reports on greenhouse gas inventory and sinks. Great read, highly recommended if you've got half a year with nothing to do. But I think one of the other things that I really tried to focus on is that there's this amazing transition happening in the way in which we conceive of how we have impact that I got a firsthand view of when I was kind of setting up my program at Microsoft, and it's this notion of something called Life Cycle Assessment. And a lot of my sources really delved into that. And just to define it to those who might not be familiar, Life Cycle Assessment says, hey, let's take anything, a cheeseburger, a keyboard, a piano. What was the entirety of all of the emissions, water and waste used to produce this thing? Not just to use it, which is our historic kind of focus. Like, oh, am I being energy efficient with my computer? But going all the way back to, where did all the raw materials come from? How much energy did it take to mine the raw materials? Then who did those raw materials go to? And how did they formulate those into small, little pieces? And then who did they send those pieces to? And when you add all that up, Justine, I call it the make it, move it, use it, lose it framework in the book. Because you got THE MAKE IT, that piece I just mentioned. THE MOVE IT, of getting it to you. And then THE USE IT we're all familiar with, because we use it ourselves. But if you apply that to almost everything in our lives, the hidden cost, the hidden waste, the hidden energy, the hidden water of getting something made in the first place is astounding. And I'll give one example, and then I'll pause, is the computer that we're recording this podcast on. Certainly mine, probably yours as well. The energy that it takes to actually run it when you charge it in at night, you need to do that for a decade before it would exceed the amount of energy it took to make it in the first place. A decade.
Justine Reichman: Decades. I've never actually thought about that. But now that you're bringing it to my attention, that's amazing, because we don't ever think about what it takes to go into what we're getting, right? We get a new car, or some people get new cars every three years, they get them in leases. And what does that mean? What it takes to put that together, the energy, etcetera, and then we're passing it off. Are we okay, because somebody else is going to buy the car, and then we're going to get the new technology? And is that how we tell ourselves that this is a good thing because we got a new, safer car? But what are we doing to the planet? Because we're creating these things, I'm like going a mile a minute because it feels like the information is just incoming. Do we slow down progress so that people don't go out and get all those new cars? That doesn't seem like a good idea. Did you see what I'm saying? Like that conversation.
Charlie Sellars: Justine, this is where I spend a lot of time in the book on a very familiar mnemonic. You've heard of reduce, reuse, recycle before? That was invented many years ago, and it was really focused on making sure that we waste less with the use of it. But it turns out that that is an amazing framework to also account for how we deal with the invisible impact upstream of when we get the device, or when we get the food, or the car. Because then, if you think about it, oh, a lot of what I need to do is to reduce the impact of what it took to make it. Then reduce is an amazing place to start. Because if I am buying fewer things, or buying things less frequently, or using something that somebody else already has, then that's great. Then I'm not creating this new need to create something into the world. Reuse is also really important. Because if you think about when you're done with something rather than throwing it away, for example, my book is a great one where my publisher will hate me saying this, but I'll say it anyway. When you're done reading my book, give it to somebody else. Give it for free. Because that way, two people are reading the book, but only one book had to be made to actually give the value to both readers. Recycling is still important to do. But if it gets to that point, you kind of have to go all the way back into reformulating it into new materials to make something new again. So the bias kind of really here, Justine, is to use the stuff you already got. And if you do want to upgrade to a more energy efficient thing, wait until your old things are done. I'm the one weird sustainability guy who's going to tell you to keep driving your gas car. Because if you throw it away too early, that's actually a whole bunch of wasted emissions instead of trying to upgrade to a hybrid or an electric.
“We don’t ever think about what it takes to go into what we’re getting.” —Justine Reichman
Justine Reichman: You're saying that, okay, the new iPhone comes out every September. I know because it's my birthday, and I usually wait every couple years to do it. But I do it because we do a lot of videos on it. So sometimes, the video quality changes. If you're Apple, or you're Microsoft, or you're Samsung, you're making all these new forms, and you want to add all these new features because you want people to have a reason to upgrade. So as a business, it is part of how they're growing, how they're expanding. So from the sustainability side of things, sure, having to think about that, integrate that into the plan while also making sure that they continue to meet their goals, their financial goals to continue to build this company.
Charlie Sellars: Totally. What I appreciate about your podcast is that there's a lot of entrepreneurs that come on and talk, and it sounds like a lot of entrepreneurs listen. Entrepreneurs listen as well. I'll even generalize the answer beyond just the kind of phones, which is, yeah, there's almost four layers to think about it. The most basic one is, do you need to do this to have a license to operate? If I'm trying to sell into a market that says, if you don't have this eco label, then we won't buy it. Then you got to kind of do it. But that's table stakes. Hopefully, everyone realizes they got to follow the rules. But underneath that, then there's this expanding layer of sustainability is a cost savings. Then you don't need a customer mandate. You don't need any sort of a broader business model conversation. You can just look at the way you're delivering your product today and saying, am I just creating a whole bunch of waste? I'm going to go back to the ingredients here. Food? Great example. 30 to 40% of all food is thrown away in America. That's a crazy big amount. And if you're a farmer, or you're a General Mills or someone, you don't want to just have a whole bunch of the effort you've gone into your product to just have it be thrown away. You want to make sure that you're not over producing, and you're selling through all of your stuff. Excess inventory that gets thrown away is just bad for business. You couldn't straight up not believe in climate change, and you'd still want to do that, because reducing waste is still good for the bottom line.
Justine Reichman: We've seen the refillable things, right? And I think more and more people are exploring that, and integrating that into their business. I know that people don't like change. So oftentimes, you may hit resistance. What are some of the independent things that people can do to make their jobs more sustainable if they come up around this resistance to have success with this?
Charlie Sellars: It's a really great question. And in the book, I kind of lay out two things. The first is, you don't just need sustainability in your job title to do sustainability. Hopefully, that's clearer and clearer every day as folks listen to conversations like these. But I also talk about, if you end up having a job where you either own it or want to layer sustainability on top of what you're doing, there's kind of four elements of getting it going in a company. The first is, you gotta make it exciting. This goes back to what we were talking about earlier where, if you are not bringing energy to the notion that this is something we should all do together? It's hard to get people rallied around the cause. Fear and anger are good motivators to a point, but they're not great motivators for people who are not completely bought into your cause, so to speak. Excitement and optimism tend to be easier ways to get people in, bring people on board, get them excited. Once you've made it exciting, then you've got to make it worth it. And that goes to what we were just saying before, is there some form of a driver that you can point to as to why this is worth doing beyond saving the planet? Maybe it's because we need to have that license to operate. Maybe it's because there's a revenue or market share opportunity. Maybe it reduces costs. Maybe it's an entirely new type of product you're trying to innovate, and you want to take a gamble as a company. There's a lot of cool ways to make it worth it. You gotta make it easy and clear. The third one, because that is something that trips up a lot of folks is that sustainability does mean everything and nothing all at the same time. And really making it clear what sustainability means is so important. I remember one time that we put out a new piece of hardware at Microsoft, and we did all these really cool things. We're like, here we did X, X, Y and Z. And then someone on Twitter just said, well, I can't replace the battery, so it's not sustainable. And it's like, they're right to say that we need to do that too, and you can do that now with our computer.
Justine Reichman: It's not all or nothing. I think that oftentimes, people feel like it's all or nothing. You come up against that too.
Charlie Sellars: Oh, god, yeah. It is all the time. I think we are sometimes our own worst enemies in our industry, where we feel like we have to do everything, or else we're doing nothing. But so much of this is such a journey we all have to be on, because those changes have to happen incrementally over time as you get people bought into the vision and the way to get it to the very end. And the way to get it to the very end. Number four, Justine, of that four part series is you got to make sustainability boring. And when I say boring, that might seem at odds with exciting. But boring really means like, if you really succeeded at making it a core part of how you do your work, it should be treated just like any other priority in your company. And that might be like you're a five minute update in a two hour operations review, or you're a single row in an Excel spreadsheet of many other priorities. But that way, you've integrated yourself into the systems that help make everything else your business does. And then sustainability is just one boring addition to a two hour meeting, and that's when you know you've really made it.
Justine Reichman: Yeah. I would agree with that. I love how you've created something that, oftentimes, people have a very pessimistic view around. They feel like they have to do everything or nothing, and to be successful. Nothing or everything in order to be successful. And just how you change the narrative and give people permission to explore how they can start to make a change. Baby steps. I want to come full circle to the Essential Ingredients, of course, because I know that you said that diets are the most important way you can change and have a climate impact. Can you expand on that? What led you to the conclusion? And what can we do?
Charlie Sellars: So this is one of those interesting things. If you look at where we have impact, our personal life is the one where we have the most control. Then you have your professional life of how we embed it into work. And then you have your political and your community life of how you vote, and how you volunteer. When it comes to just the stuff in your immediate control of your personal life, food is either the number one or number two for most people. Single biggest source of the water they use, the emissions they make, oftentimes, the waste because we're eating at least three times a day, but usually three times a day, 365 days a year. And all that food takes a lot of stuff coming in.
Justine Reichman: So if we were to expand this and talk about fish, or chicken, or any of those things, what would the consumption of water be like for those items?
Charlie Sellars: So with fish, and this is what's so tricky about the hidden costs. WE, as the consumer, we don't get to see what went into getting the food to us. Fish don't really use that much water because they live in the water. The thing that's interesting with fish, though, is that the number one source of plastic in the ocean is discarded fishing nets. So from a waste point of view and a plastic point of view, fortunately, if you look at some of these commercial grade trawlers, the net that they're putting into the ocean to get all that fish is oftentimes three times larger than the Statue of Liberty. It's a huge amount of plastic. And then when they're done with the nets, they often just dump them. Now, there's a lot of stuff that needs to be done to make sure that there's more regulation to prevent that kind of dump, prevent that kind of dumping. And it's usually kind of a global problem. Not a local one, but it's an entirely different kind of question of what matters most to you and your own conception of making an impact. Do you want to reduce plastic waste in the ocean? Do you want to reduce water use, and reduce Amazon deforestation? Because beef consumption is tied to that too. Do you want to go full vegan, vegetarian? I wrote a whole blog on the two on like, HelloFresh More Sustainable? Yes or no? It's such an interesting question.
Justine Reichman: I don't think there's one right answer, because there's so many different things. There's so many different situations where people eat certain ways, and have to eat certain ways, or need to get their protein in and whatever it is, and have different diets for reasons. They have to make the right choice for themselves, and then think about within that framework, what are they most comfortable with, as opposed to putting everything else above your health? I see that people are like, oh, well, I don't want to do that. Well, okay, let's talk about what's healthy and ideal for you so that you can live a healthy sustainable life. And that may look different for me than it is for you, but that's okay. The goal is to live a healthy, better for you life. Those choices, I think, and I want to give people permission, like you said, to say what's right for you. And what's right for you doesn't have to be right for me, and that's okay.
Charlie Sellars: 1,000%. I think this is where the whole point of the book is not to shame you for the decisions you're making today. It's to give you the empowerment to see where the impact actually lives in your life, to give you the choice to understand where in your life based on the things you cherish and prioritize whether it be your health or something else where the little turns of the dial that I can make where I can start maximizing an impact more and more. Let's say, Justine, you are a hard car carnivore. And it's like, I need my 20 burgers a month to survive, and I'm not changing that. That's okay, too, as long as you still have the option to make sure you eat your food, because that's the first step we can do without changing our diets at all. Just smaller portions so we don't have excess that we end up throwing away, because that's how we get to 30, 40% of food in America being thrown away if we're not actually finishing what we buy. And that's a 30% improvement in your impact right there if you just actually finished your food.
Justine Reichman: Charlie, this was such an exciting conversation, and it was so tangible for me. I hope that our listeners have the same experience, whether they're building a business or they want to live a more sustainable life. I think changing the framework and the way that they thought about it, thinking about optimistic climate change, I think, is really paramount and a place to start. So thank you so much for joining me today. I enjoyed it so enjoyed this. For our listeners that tuned in today, or our viewers that tuned in, what would be the best way to get your book?
Charlie Sellars: Yeah, so it's funny. You say that because I'm the one weird millennial who doesn't have any social media. I'm not going to plug in an Instagram account or anything, but I do have a LinkedIn. You can find me on LinkedIn. But if you want to buy the book, if you can believe it, Justine, there's even sustainability implications of how you do that. So the easiest thing you can do is find it on Amazon, What We Can Do: A Climate Optimist's Guide to Sustainable Living. But if you want to have a little bit of a lower impact way to enjoy the book, consider going and asking for it at your local library, or going to your local bookstore, your independent bookstore, because it is available in America wherever books are sold. There's an electronic version as well. Turns out that you can never get a straight answer out of me, because there's always so many of these fun little qualifiers into what that is. But you can find me on Amazon if you want to just do it fast.
Justine Reichman: Thanks so much for sharing this conversation with me. I really appreciated it. It was great. I'm excited for our listeners to be empowered. So for those tuning in today, don't forget that we have a new episode every week. If you like this episode, leave us a note. We'll send it to Charlie. We'll share with him what you're doing, the impact you're having so we can inspire others. And if you're not following us on social media, even though he doesn't have social status, we have social. You can follow us at essential.ingredients on Instagram. We also have YouTube so you can watch our video casts, so don't forget to tune in there as well. We'll have links in the show notes so you won't be able to miss anything from his books, to our podcast, to our video casts. And if you like this, don't forget to like and share it with your friends. We'll see you again next week. Thanks so much.
